Curse

targetdrone · May 02, 2012, 05:21 PM // 17:21

The way I see it the only chance of GW1 surviving long term is if GW1 generates enough $$$$. Whether by existing players spending enough $$$, or by new players buying the game.

The thing is creating new good PvE content usually costs money, whereas PvP players can play the same thing over and over again - just look at the people playing Starcraft, and other games.

And I actually think GW1 PVP still has a lot of untapped potential - the actual game mechanics are decent, but the human aspects are being handled poorly.

If you had different divisions (like in sports - racing, soccer, boxing etc, or even other games ), then more noob players would be able to learn about PvP more easily at the low-rank divisions, or even unranked divisions rather than:
a) Not getting into a group to actually start learning because "nobody wants noobs"
b) Getting in after 10-20 minutes of waiting and getting wiped/farmed in seconds by some elite guild (happens even in "random PvP" due to sync-ing), and being flamed and blamed for the loss. Can't really learn much from that except to not play PvP.

And so you get fewer PvP players.

FWIW even games like "Tetris Battle" don't let world class tetris players farm the beginner players - players can only challenge players if the difference in their rank/level is not too great and there's also a handicapping system (no point in GW - given the sort of gimmick builds one can come up with...).

Might be too late for GW1 but maybe they can do it for GW2 - it's easier to divide thousands of excited players into X divisions than near-zero players into X divisions

.

One should still allow a great difference in rank for GvG if both parties consent - that allows guilds to teach and learn. Whereas for more automated PvP battles, the noobs should be in a different league from the Champions.

I suppose some formats will still need to allow "random" players. I believe FA could get very unbalanced if the randomness goes away.

Premium Unleaded · May 02, 2012, 06:01 PM // 18:01

ANet abandoned pvp years ago to focus solely on pve and any additional support for the former is less likely than not getting bots in JQ. WvW in GW2 is their way of trying to appease and link the two sides, how successful it is at that is to be seen.

Motoko · May 02, 2012, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Back in the day, what you are hoping to exist within PvP - did exist in PvP.

The guild ladder was VERY active and you almost always fought people close to your rank or rating.

Unfortunately ladder doesn't mean anything anymore (barely) - so the reason to play and farm ladder has dissappeared along with the players.

The ladder would have to have more of an incentive than it does right now (emote - winning a tiebreaker - obs mode) to even attempt to fix that portion.

Back then top 16 on the ladder had you compete for trim and ultimately GWWC's.

DreamRunner · May 03, 2012, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Those existed in TA and HA, not so much in gvg. GvG was pretty good back in the day, but with lost of interest from anet in balancing skills correctly, and a strong inbalance of skills in different formats of PvP. GW1 pvp was handled really badly from the start of introduction of new skills.

Lol@ smiting in TA.

targetdrone · May 03, 2012, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

Those existed in TA and HA, not so much in gvg.

Perhaps I wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall different divisions/leagues existing in TA. As far as I know a random bunch of noobs from RA that somehow survived 10 battles could go smack into an elite TA team with a well-planned team build. Same goes for a team of noobs starting in TA.

There was some sort of player battle ranking in Hero Battles. But I think not enough players were interested in Hero Battles.

As for HA I think back then there was a minimum requirement in order to play it (win TA 5 times?), so I never really bothered - if TA was just a bunch of fussy elitist teams farming noobs from RA, you won't get many new players into HA. And that was my impression.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

The ladder would have to have more of an incentive than it does right now (emote - winning a tiebreaker - obs mode) to even attempt to fix that portion.

There are plenty of people playing Counterstrike, Starcraft, tennis, chess, etc every day because they find it fun. No need for any other incentive.

If you need people to pay/give you stuff to play something or else you won't play it, then the game can't really be that fun right?

But I'm sure those playing tennis won't find it fun if:
a) it takes ages just to get started
b) once you get started you get trashed within a minute by champions.
c) the people call them noobs and tell them to stick to PvE instead (yeah I've actually seen people do that!).

I do find FA and JQ fun enough to play quite often, but Anet isn't doing enough about leechers. It's kinda daft to win/lose just because the one side has more leechers and leavers- what sort of "playing a game" is that? I'm sure it'll discourage leechers more if Anet made the penalty for _persistent_ leeching be a demotion in title track rank or deduction of faction or something similar.

Motoko · May 03, 2012, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by targetdrone

There are plenty of people playing Counterstrike, Starcraft, tennis, chess, etc every day because they find it fun. No need for any other incentive.

If you need people to pay/give you stuff to play something or else you won't play it, then the game can't really be that fun right?

Your argument would be valid here if it weren't for the fact that the games you listed are all primarily single player games. (Except counterstrike - However that is a puggable game - you can't just throw 8 random players in a format and tell them to play a GvG match.)

It takes a lot of effort these days to get the 7 other players to want to play towards a collective goal when there really is no prize except the hope you will do well one day a month.

ruk1a · May 03, 2012, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

Your argument would be valid here if it weren't for the fact that the games you listed are all primarily single player games. (Except counterstrike - However that is a puggable game - you can't just throw 8 random players in a format and tell them to play a GvG match.)

It takes a lot of effort these days to get the 7 other players to want to play towards a collective goal when there really is no prize except the hope you will do well one day a month.

Yeah starcraft is soo single player

GW2 has a good ranking system I believe.

GW1 pvp is dead unless they start balancing more and get off pve's wiener.

Motoko · May 04, 2012, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruk1a

Yeah starcraft is soo single player

GW2 has a good ranking system I believe.

GW1 pvp is dead unless they start balancing more and get off pve's wiener.

Starcraft competitively is single player. I really don't feel the need to go in depth on that if you are familiar with the discussion this thread is about.

DreamRunner · May 04, 2012, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by targetdrone

Perhaps I wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall different divisions/leagues existing in TA. As far as I know a random bunch of noobs from RA that somehow survived 10 battles could go smack into an elite TA team with a well-planned team build. Same goes for a team of noobs starting in TA.

Exactly. People in TA wanted a ranking system, but what you mentioned as (a) and (b) was how it was. TA could have been a great format, there was a lot of dedicated players and even TA guilds. But it was never developed to its full ability, and so what we have today is the result. Also skills were in unbalanced for PvP 4 man vs PvP 8 man. Smiting was maent to get an overhall and anet was going to come back later to fix it - yet they decided not to.

targetdrone · May 04, 2012, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

Your argument would be valid here if it weren't for the fact that the games you listed are all primarily single player games. (Except counterstrike - However that is a puggable game - you can't just throw 8 random players in a format and tell them to play a GvG match.)

It takes a lot of effort these days to get the 7 other players to want to play towards a collective goal when there really is no prize except the hope you will do well one day a month.

1) It is true that multiple player teams makes it harder. But "random" people do play football, teamfortress and other team games regularly for fun. No prize needed.
2) Is GW PvP fun enough? You do still find GvG fun right? (BTW congrats on the 2nd place! At one point I did think your team would have beaten oG, but your away split died). Fun enough to do without a reward?
3) So why can't 8 "random" players play GvG matches for fun? They are unlikely to be competitive, however that does not necessarily mean they can't have fun. OK some guilds are doing it already in scrimmages, but are there really many people doing that for fun? There seems to be some sort of barrier right? There may be 16 (or more) people wanting to GvG just for fun at a particular moment, but there seems no easy way for them to actually start. They all need to be in the same active guild, or somehow find each other, etc. Might feel more like work than play... So maybe since the cost is so high (in time and effort) it's not relaxed, there is more pressure so players must run the meta builds of the month and not just be silly and have fun? (taking the playfulness out of play).
4) People do seem to manage to get other human players in PvE. But there's some sort of in-game reward, so maybe that doesn't count?

Missing HB · May 04, 2012, 04:27 PM // 16:27

You are entirely right, the problem here is that they didn't care about PvP and hardly will do at this state of the game...

On big lines, removing hero battles and full heroes parties from PvP did hurt a lot, since it was quite a big part of the activity and the game was already dying..
That's basically the same as if you made counter strike maps require 8 players, else the game won't start. The success would clearly not be the same at all..

Let's face it, there is rarely any activity in organized formats. Typically, HA today relies on having one team ready to waste hours , in order to reach halls and trigger one hall match. Then, you need to pray for that team to not rage, else the activity will decrease for next hours...

I argued about it, the only way they can do anything for after GW2 release is to either bring back hero battles, or to allow henchs parties in PvP. At least, there will be some activity between some players at anytime. Else, it will surely die..

Motoko · May 04, 2012, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by targetdrone

1) It is true that multiple player teams makes it harder. But "random" people do play football, teamfortress and other team games regularly for fun. No prize needed.
2) Is GW PvP fun enough? You do still find GvG fun right? (BTW congrats on the 2nd place! At one point I did think your team would have beaten oG, but your away split died). Fun enough to do without a reward?
3) So why can't 8 "random" players play GvG matches for fun? They are unlikely to be competitive, however that does not necessarily mean they can't have fun. OK some guilds are doing it already in scrimmages, but are there really many people doing that for fun? There seems to be some sort of barrier right? There may be 16 (or more) people wanting to GvG just for fun at a particular moment, but there seems no easy way for them to actually start. They all need to be in the same active guild, or somehow find each other, etc. Might feel more like work than play... So maybe since the cost is so high (in time and effort) it's not relaxed, there is more pressure so players must run the meta builds of the month and not just be silly and have fun? (taking the playfulness out of play).
4) People do seem to manage to get other human players in PvE. But there's some sort of in-game reward, so maybe that doesn't count?

Yes you are correct - Yet for the most part - You don't have very many skilled GvG guilds that are there purely because it is "fun". The fun often is a result of the shared comradery and success your guild has (not to mention the fact you've grown in the PvP community with these guys). I made zQ a year ago (it was a mentor program with people who never gvg'd before). After some short lived success (top 8 stuff) - I took a hiatus. The players separated and worked on their individual skill and improved tremendously, but all desired to have that "zQ-ness" again. Naturally I will stick with these guys because we have a blast playing. When we hit a losing streak with trying something new - the morale definitely takes its toll.

Everybody has their own reason for playing competitively. Obtaining a gold trim is the only thing I have not accomplished in this game. Max titles, high HA ranks, holding, significant wins in any arena, PvE elite areas, Pre-searing. 2nd place is one spot away from finishing it all. Even after I win I plan to continue playing. As far as people who have won gold? Most do quit, some don't - There are a lot of those players that I question who don't quit and the drastic effect it has on their personal lives and from what I've heard about their lack of success IRL (that is getting a little personal though :P).

The lack of many teams in GvG makes running "fun" builds not as viable. As the ones who remain would like to win - and running meta is usually the best way to do so. There are not enough skilled innovative players that aren't already in a guild to form something unique and be successful with it.

PvE is different. Computers are reliable and predictable. Rinse, wash, and repeat. You don't have that in PvP (well you can once you are skilled enough and can read your opponent like a book from experience). Not to mention in PvE I personally feel it is a bit more mindless and the important rolls rest on a few rather than a group of 8.

I hope I anwered most of what you were inquiring about.

floor · May 10, 2012, 10:49 AM // 10:49

To be fair, i dont think that many players quit directly as a result of winning a goldcape. I have one, albeit from slightly fortuitous circustamces, regardless until I had it i always wanted one, then once i had it, and i think this applies to a lot of other ppl too, you realise that you dont care, it doesnt matter or change anything, and even though you thought u wanted a goldcape all this time, u do in fact just play for the love of the game. Not for any silly reward.

I've given up playing in the more competitive scene, because these teams rarely play anymore. I dont care enough about goldtrims to motivate myself to just play 3 AT's per month and the mat, i mean seriously what is the point in this?? You either enjoy the game and play it, or u dont and quit. Why people feel the need to sit in limbo halfway between the 2 amazes me.

Ultimately though, yes the game is dead, but even so, ive found that I'm enjoying myself much more by playing with a group of more active, chilled out guys at a lower rank. Theres no rage, no drama, and theres a real sense of accomplishment when we win. Whereas before I just felt that any loss was the end of the world, and any win was simply expected, not a success. On reflection it was a pretty sad position to be in. By dropping down the ladder a bit, and playing for "fun", rather than solely to "win" (although dont get me wrong, i still try and win, i just dont get upset if we lose ;p ) has rekindled my enjoyment for the game, and im honestly enjoying myself more in the last 2 months than I have done in the last 2 years.

A lot of players quit I feel because they cant win, rather than the fact that they do win. Which is a shame, because if u change ur priorities when playing the game, and just enjoy urself on teamspeak with a fun group of guys and girls, then gw can still be a blast. When building my current guild, i based it around activity, rather than player skill. Not having multiple ppl offline 24/7 and having to find guests has made it so much easier to play the game i love. So many people try and make guilds with the very best players available, these players never log on, and the guild disbands. Its pretty stupid really.

People's ego's got too big, and winning became an obsession. Such a shame.

Gruff · May 10, 2012, 10:59 AM // 10:59

he gets it he gets it!

Nanyetah · May 11, 2012, 12:02 AM // 00:02

huh, here I was aspiring to do PvP and it's already dead ended. oh well.

AmoebaInfectionTechnique · May 12, 2012, 09:18 PM // 21:18

I am still dreaming of a RA style GvG. It was my dream since 2005.

jazilla · May 12, 2012, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I already love PvP in GW2 more than I do in this game. Partly because it is new and fresh, but mostly because it feels more alive and active and sharp. This game(GW1) is one of my favorite games of all time. I have played it longer and more often than any other title I can remember on a regular basis. ArenaNet have crafted something in GW2 that goes way beyond what is here. It feels more refined for lack of a better term. Hopefully, more care will be given to counter some of the pitfalls that ArenaNet has to go through with a community that strives to game the system by botting/smurfing/cheating/and generally treating others like garbage and being elitist. I know it is idealistic of me to want other players to conform to the spirit of the game that ANet has in mind for GW2, but really, wouldn't we all have a better time if the Guru community extends its hand and does what it has tried to do with helping players learn how to play GW2 like they did with GW1? Hopefully it ends a little less bitterly than GW1's PvP did.

Motoko · May 13, 2012, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I already love PvP in GW2 more than I do in this game. Partly because it is new and fresh, but mostly because it feels more alive and active and sharp. This game(GW1) is one of my favorite games of all time. I have played it longer and more often than any other title I can remember on a regular basis. ArenaNet have crafted something in GW2 that goes way beyond what is here. It feels more refined for lack of a better term. Hopefully, more care will be given to counter some of the pitfalls that ArenaNet has to go through with a community that strives to game the system by botting/smurfing/cheating/and generally treating others like garbage and being elitist. I know it is idealistic of me to want other players to conform to the spirit of the game that ANet has in mind for GW2, but really, wouldn't we all have a better time if the Guru community extends its hand and does what it has tried to do with helping players learn how to play GW2 like they did with GW1? Hopefully it ends a little less bitterly than GW1's PvP did.

GW2 PvP takes everything that made GW1 PvP unique and perfect and puts it in a little trash bag in the alley to be picked up the next morning.

*deleted the need for 8 man teams because developers couldn't get 7 other friends to play with them

*deleted any decent tactics in long matches because - quite frankly - that actually took some skill and 15 minute cluster fks are a better solution to that (sarcasm)

*made a deformed love child between RA and costume brawls when neither are the same PvP style that GW1 prided itself on

If you love the current GW2 PvP then you are a casual gamer and you won't understand the significance and feeling GvG had.

Coast · May 13, 2012, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

GW2 PvP takes everything that made GW1 PvP unique and perfect and puts it in a little trash bag in the alley to be picked up the next morning.

*deleted the need for 8 man teams because developers couldn't get 7 other friends to play with them

*deleted any decent tactics in long matches because - quite frankly - that actually took some skill and 15 minute cluster fks are a better solution to that (sarcasm)

*made a deformed love child between RA and costume brawls when neither are the same PvP style that GW1 prided itself on

If you love the current GW2 PvP then you are a casual gamer and you won't understand the significance and feeling GvG had.

No better way to say it, I got nothing to add.

Swingline · May 13, 2012, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

*deleted the need for 8 man teams because developers couldn't get 7 other friends to play with them

The problem was many couldn't get the skillful team to be decently successful at GvG. One kink in the chain anywhere and you will get steamrolled back to the GH. Most people that bought the game were expecting guild battles to be fun(it is a game after all) but instead got a cold dish of epeen competitiveness because all the players not interested in turning GWs pvp into a job went elsewhere to game for fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

*deleted any decent tactics in long matches because - quite frankly - that actually took some skill and 15 minute cluster fks are a better solution to that (sarcasm)

Many new players were not allowed to acquire skillful team play by players and the pvp system itself. Both can be very unforgiving. Then there is the problem with ping, a team with a 16ms pblock mesmer always wins. Is it unfair? No, but the GWs system and pvp community are very unforgiving to newcomers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

*made a deformed love child between RA and costume brawls when neither are the same PvP style that GW1 prided itself on

The pride you speak of died when NF came out. There wouldn't be much direction for GWs pvp to go. They went with more skills and Guild halls with expansions but any other way would have been just as disastrous because GWs design doesn't take any new content well. If they went another way you would probably be complaining that they never gave pvp any more skills.

Organized pvp may as well be costume brawls. 90% of pvpers run the same few skills that are part of the current meta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

If you love the current GW2 PvP then you are a casual gamer and you won't understand the significance and feeling GvG had.

BS. Many enjoy both casual and hardcore pvp. I thoroughly enjoyed pvp before NF but given the direction the game took and time restraints that soon followed for me it was time to retire.

The only real significance it has is that it is a flawed system that cannot be sustained for long and if Anet made the drastic changes that were needed to make it more populated I bet my bottom dollar every hardcore pvper would have bitched to no end. Instead they left it alone and gave you time in the sun, now its time for people that want to pvp and relax.